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MacFish

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Jun 5 09 4:21 PM

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Anyone seen these guys before? It's a new one for me.

http://www.aquascapeonline.com/prodView.asp?idProduct=492&item=Electric%20Blue%20Ram%202.5
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Tampafishman

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#2 [url]

Jun 6 09 10:44 AM

looks like might be man made by using anemone genes spliced into cichlid genes. Same way as they are creating the colored zebra danios.
That type of stuff I do not support doing.

"Dear Iceberg, I am sorry to hear about global warming. Karma is tough. Signed - Titanic"

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Lively369

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#3 [url]

Jun 7 09 5:01 AM

I saw them about a month ago - they aren't hybrids from what I've been told. Color morph. Very little info out there about them right now.

I want six...

~Lively

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#4 [url]

Jun 22 09 2:11 PM

I read this thread Saturday and popped into my LFS Sunday and sure enough there were 4 of these fish at £15 each. I initially bought 3 of these fish then went back the next day to buy the last one after I saw how good they look in a tank with a dark substrate.

They are NOT genetically modified fish (genetic modification is a highly complex and very expensive process that has been applied to few organisms other than a few cash crops by very sophisticated labs. Zebra Danios are used as the fish equivalent of lab rats and so have undergone some GM but not primarily for the fish trade). They are selectively bred - in the UK we've had German Blue Rams for a while with more Blue and "Gold rams" with solid yellow. They are obviously pure M. ramirezi, no hybrids, just selectively bred for blue (as the gold were selectively bred for yellow).

I don't normally like Ram strains - gold, veiltail and worst of all balloon all look repulsive to me, but these are gorgeous and will keep me busy whilst my EBJD refuse to spawn.

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Lively369

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#5 [url]

Jun 22 09 3:19 PM

I'm green Roccio! I'd like some of them, myself. So far, all of the sources I've found for them have been "out of stock"

Post pics of them!!!

~Lively

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#6 [url]

Jun 22 09 4:19 PM

My photography skills are poor but I'll do me best tonight and see if I can get anything not too blurred.

I wouldn't be too green - although beautiful, these fish scream "mass produced asian" rams to me and one is already looking at bit sickly even though they are in their own tank in perfect conditions.

I'm hoping to keep one of the 4 alive at least and backcross with either my wild or German rams. They all look the same sex to me, at £15 each I suspect the breeders are seperating the sexes to keep the high value.

These seem to be popping up all over, so I imagine you'll get some very soon, the question is whether they'll be just a beautiful blue version of the asian ram that live a few weeks or as hardy as my wild rams.

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Tampafishman

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#7 [url]

Jun 22 09 6:16 PM

Roccio wrote:


They are NOT genetically modified fish (genetic modification is a highly complex and very expensive process that has been applied to few organisms other than a few cash crops by very sophisticated labs. Zebra Danios are used as the fish equivalent of lab rats and so have undergone some GM but not primarily for the fish trade). They are selectively bred - in the UK we've had German Blue Rams for a while with more Blue and "Gold rams" with solid yellow. They are obviously pure M. ramirezi, no hybrids, just selectively bred for blue (as the gold were selectively bred for yellow).
.


Just to set the record straight.Currently the Florida fish farmers are producing well over 10,000 genetically modified zebra dainos every week.
Current production colors are: Red, Yellow, Orange and Green. I think I saw blue ones too. I have heard 4 other colors are in production at this time.
There is also research for color modification for other strains of fish.

I am not saying your rams are genetically modified but it is possible at fairly low cost now.

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#8 [url]

Jun 23 09 12:01 PM

Tampa,

You missed my point, I agreed with you that some Zebra Danios are being sold as GM - because Zebra Danios are the fish equivalent of Lab Rats (used in commercial ecotoxicology tests) and were genetically modified for research purposes and commercial breeders have then taken these fish and made money from them by simple replication. Hence it is low cost to replicate a GMO once it's been done - but the initial splicing of the genes is, as yet, beyond the money you'd get back from selling them (and genetic copyright on fish is tough). So for the vast majority of hobby fish species not used in labs to test the effect of water pollution etc the varieties we are seeing are NOT genetically modified. To my knowledge Fat Head Minnows, Indian Glass Fish and Zebra Danios have been modified, principally for research purposed although the fish have then been bred by commercial farms for the hobby. Rams are not widely used in research and therefore have not been genetically modified - similarly EBJDs. The fluorescent anenomie gene you mention is a fluorescent gene that has been spliced into a few fish to act as a marker - under ultra violet light it glows - you can attach this gene to a gene you are studying and it will produces a bright fluorecent colour when the associated gene is active under UV - allows a fast +/- test result. Critically it is fluorecent under UV only - NOT the natural blue we are seeing in these rams which is present in wild type fish. I think some Indian Glass Fish (develop for research) are being sold with this gene in.

So in short the cost of initially developing the GM fish is high, but where this has been done for research (i.e. if the fish is used in lab tests) they can then be bred for the hobby.

I'll risk admitting I used to work in one of the few Lab in the UK involved in the genetic modification of key crop species (boo! hiss@me). So the public and medias misunderstanding of GM is something I know from personal experience. There is much confusion over what is a GM fish - personally I think we have enough problems with dyed fish and nasty hybrids without GM coming into the hobby. As such we should recognise the few species where it has happened and isolate them, not risk damaging the whole hobby by accusing any new strain as being potentially a GM species. This is worse then the accusation that EBJDs are hybrids and must be nipped in the bud.

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Lively369

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#9 [url]

Jun 23 09 1:50 PM

LOL - Boo Hiss!

What Roccio said about GM makes sense. You know those dayglow kittens are going to hit the market soon enough. Research companies are happy enough to sell these things to offset the cost of the real work they are doing. I really don't have an issue with them making it to the hobby - or hybrids either - as long as it is clear that is what they are. Dyed fish is another matter - they should be banned - I think that it is just cruel.

~Lively

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#10 [url]

Jun 23 09 5:24 PM

Agreed on dyed fish, I've even written to Practical Fish keeping magazine grassing up local disreputable fish stores selling dyed fish even though they'd signed Practical Fishkeepings "We will not sell dyed fish" pledge. Unfortunately there are no regulations relating to the sale of dyed fish in the UK. I'm banned from one because I told the customer buying a fluorescent green parrot cichlid how it got to be that colour, as soon as he knew he refused to buy it.

Anyway, back to the Blue Rams - one was looking a bit sickly so I'm treating the whole tank with Hexamita which has made the water green. Soon as it clears I'll uploads some photos.

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Lively369

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#11 [url]

Jun 23 09 9:53 PM

I don't know if there are any regulations in regards to dyed fish in the US, either. Glad to hear you told him, doesn't sound like it's a bad thing you're banned! lol

There are a couple of guys in my fish club that have decent contact in the import world - when I'm ready for my next project I'll start grilling them about the EBGR - it's now a standing joke that I'm fond of the "blue fishies"

~Lively

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Tampafishman

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#12 [url]

Jun 23 09 10:35 PM

Lively369 wrote:
I don't know if there are any regulations in regards to dyed fish in the US, either. d! lol

"


Regretfully no regs against dyed fish or painted ones for that matter.

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Lively369

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#13 [url]

Jun 23 09 11:07 PM

I thought as much, Tampa. A real shame - they waste all that time and effort on that stupid non-native species bill but they do nothing about this issue.

~Lively

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#14 [url]

Jun 25 09 3:52 PM

Unfortunately the fish trade is massively underregulated in the UK. The public/protestors went crazy when they heard some GM crops were being planted. But import a few GM danios and no one cares or notices.

Back to the blue rams - the news is not good. Lost one due to typical what I call Asian Ram Syndrome - clamped fins and rapid breathing followed by spiralling and rapid death. Other 3 now all showing same symptoms, I'm treating with ESHA Hexamita and Flubenol 15 but I've never had a ram display these symptoms and live. Open to ideas on treatment options....?

Just for record water parameters:

0 0 0 ammonia, nitrate, nitrite. pH 6.5. temp 82 C, water very soft with daily 10-20% water change.

I don't think the sickness is related to the blue strain, it's just endemic in rams imported to UK from the far east and I should have known better than to risk buying any, however pretty.

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Lively369

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#15 [url]

Jun 25 09 4:08 PM

I'd add salt. 2 TBS per gallon brought up slowly over the day and for a week and with the daily water changes. Bring back down with daily water changes after the week.

Good luck, and keep us posted!

edited to add - alder cones? I just recently heard about them here in the states, I understand they are pretty common over in europe.

~Lively

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#16 [url]

Jun 26 09 1:17 PM

Thanks Livesley, I'll try the salt if any are still alive when i get home from work, nothing to lose and if they die I'll just keep on adding salt and buy some Blue Damsels and get this silly blue obsession sorted!

Just to check, in the UK a TSB is a Tablespoon, which is a large spoon holding roughly 20g or 3/4oz salt?

Alder cones are interesting - they are a UK tree, usually found in marshy/aquatic acidic areas in the UK, so I can see how their cones may act like Almond Leaves. It's still a bit early over here for them.

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Lively369

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#17 [url]

Jun 26 09 1:50 PM

I've the same problem with blue fish - never seen one I don't like!

I forgot - Brits do it by weight. That sounds about right. My mom still uses a scale to bake many of the things my Grandmother used to make. She figured out the US measurements years ago - but she still pulls that old blue thing out everytime she makes shortbread.

We have alder trees here, too. But, I was thinking you might have them in the LFS around there.

~Lively

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#18 [url]

Jun 26 09 7:05 PM

Never seen alder cones in LFS but then never really looked.

Home from work and 2 more dead leaving me with one remaining fish who isn't looking to happy. Am in process of adding the salt, thanks.

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#20 [url]

Jul 1 09 5:21 PM

Last Electric Blue Ram is still alive and, fingers crossed, seems to have come through the worst of it, he/she is still a little dark but I'm hopeful.

It's a shame I won't get to breed an EBR*EBR to see if they breed true, but I will try and cross with my best wild or German fish and it will be fascinating to see what the babies look like.

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